Bill 12, Body Armour Control Act
April 13, 2010
The Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Fish Creek.
Mrs. Forsyth: Well, thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’m pleased to rise and speak on Bill 12. I don’t think anyone can argue that keeping Alberta safe is the number one priority. Yesterday we debated in the Legislature the importance of getting it right, and we talked about the importance of consultation. I would like to get some clarification from the minister on several issues if I may. Hopefully, the Minister of Justice will read Hansard.
Mr. Speaker, I think what’s important about democracy and the opportunity of having the last two weeks to be at home: you move around the province, you move around your constituency, and you have some debates about what legislation is important and other legislation that’s not so important. I had the opportunity to talk to people. In fact, it was interesting. For Bill 12, which I honestly didn’t think would create that much debate, I’ve had a lot of calls. We’ve had a lot of e-mails on that. I’ve had a lot of discussion on Bill 12. So for me second reading is to get some clarification from the minister. The notes that I’ve taken are notes that I’ve heard from across the province. It’s from what people have called me about. It’s some meetings I’ve had. So I would really like to get some clarification.
I would like to ask the minister: who have you consulted with on developing this legislation? As I indicated earlier, we talked a lot about consultation. I’d like to know who was consulted on this legislation, how much time was spent on the consultation. One of the things that’s been interesting is: did you consult with those selling the body armour? Many of the people that we’ve talked to to get some clarification from them have not been called. They haven’t been consulted. In fact, they haven’t even been asked for their advice or their opinion. They heard about this Bill 12 but have not been called, haven’t been consulted, haven’t even been asked for their advice or their opinion.
It’s important to note that there are a number of individuals employed in dangerous industries that are not exempt from the permit application process such as taxi drivers or local shop owners. If a shop owner or a taxi driver feels unsafe performing their daily duties and wishes to apply for a permit, the bill does not touch on what criteria must be met by that individual in order to be approved or even considered for a permit. Mr. Speaker, another concern is the registrar and its duties to report illegal activities. Now, I understand the Alberta Solicitor General and Public Security will administer the application process. My concern is that Bill 12 does not mention whether or not the registrar is responsible for informing police authorities if an application for a permit is thought to be connected with criminal or otherwise illegal activities. If an individual applies for body armour and is thought to be involved in a gang or crime ring, what requirements are in place for the registrar to report that individual? Another question relates to the fee an individual would incur to apply for a permit. Bill 12 is very vague in stating in section 6(2)(b), “be accompanied with the prescribed fee.”
Mr. Speaker, what or where does the bill deal with Internet sales? How do you plan on dealing with that? If you type on the Internet “body armour” or “bulletproof vest,” it brings a host of companies where you can purchase body armour online. What is ironic and to me interesting is how many came up and how easy it is to purchase. What is even funnier is what is under legal terms of sale and website use. I’m just going to quote from one of them. Legal Terms of Sale and Website Use We only sell to law-abiding adults.
Body armor is a purely defensive item but, regardless, we are very sensitive to the possibility of vests being misused by criminals. By buying a vest from us, you certify that you are a law-abiding adult with no felony convictions.
Now, that’s ironic. If you go down further in reading that, it assumes no liability. It tells you about the shipping and handling. It tells you all about the bulletproof vest. It tells you all about the body armour. You can even send your size. So a criminal can type in here: yes, I’m a law-abiding citizen; my name is Joe Blow, and I want this. How are we going to control that?
Mr. Speaker, I also have some questions that I want to have the minister respond to. How many employees will your proposed registry have? How much will it cost? Couldn’t these employees and these dollars be put to better use on front-line policing? Another question, and this is from a police officer: is a provincial stat offence going to stop gang members from obtaining body armour? Another one from a police officer: under exemption 4(h) who can set up businesses, and what is stopping organized gang members from setting up the business and selling it to other organized crime gang members?
Mr. Speaker, I know and I realize the importance of keeping our communities safe. I had the honour of chairing the task force, travelling this wonderful province and talking to hundreds of people about what’s important to them to keep their communities safe and what they wanted to see. We put forward many, many recommendations on that. I support the concept of the bill; I truly do. But we need to get clarification. We talked about that in-depth yesterday in regard to getting it right.
I’d be more than pleased to have the minister respond to the questions. I think they’re important. These are the questions, quite frankly, that Albertans have asked us. These aren’t the questions that the Member for Calgary-Fish Creek pulled out of her hat and said: “Okay, well, I need to understand this.” These are some of the questions, as I alluded to earlier, that the police have asked me to get clarification on. I’m sure other members of the House have received some e-mail in regard to some of the questions, things that have come in with regard to this particular piece of legislation. I can only tell you that it’s important to get some answers. I know that some of the police have written because I’ve got a copy of one of the e-mails that was sent to us that was addressed to the Premier, and it was addressed to Minister Redford. He says very clearly that he’s a police officer. He says: I’m being blunt; this is typical political legislation to make headlines but does nothing to solve the problem and has unintended victims; I’m a cop in this province, and I’m involved in gang enforcement. Basically, he went on to ask some questions, some of those that I’ve brought forward, in regard to the questions that I’d like the minister responsible to answer if those can be answered, Mr. Speaker. It’s what we discussed yesterday. It’s about clarity. It’s about getting it right. I think there are some important cost factors that need to be answered in this particular legislation. I don’t for a minute believe that in my four years as Solicitor General and in all the years, and I use this lightly, that I worked the streets – I’ve been involved with police on the streets on the issue of drugs and alcohol and child prostitution. There is no way on God’s green earth that anybody is going to convince me that gang members or organized crime are going to willingly go and purchase body armour.
I like some of the things that are contained in the bill: allowing the police to do searches. My concern is, again, the innocent victims that are going to be taking up time in regard to trying to purchase body armour: the taxi driver, the pizza driver that’s serving pizza in some of our unsavory districts in this city.
So I look forward, again, to getting clarification from the minister. Maybe this is one of these bills that is perception versus reality, one that it might be worthwhile to send off to one of our policy field committees and listen to what, you know, we hear when we go into one of those policy field committees. I sit on that particular policy field committee, and I would love the opportunity to be able to ask the people that come in front of us, whether it’s Chief Hanson, who I have a great deal of admiration for and support, as I do the chief here. As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, all of the chiefs in this province and all of the police in this province do an unbelievable job under very, very difficult circumstances. I think it’s an opportunity for us to have them come forward. We can ask them some questions. We can ask the legal beagles, that we have a lot of in this government, and get some answers from them.
I think it’s important to consult with the people that sell this equipment. As I mentioned earlier, of the contacts that we made with people that sell the body armour, none – none – have been called. None have been asked. They’re reading what they read in the paper.
I look forward to hearing from the Minister of Justice in regard to the questions that I’ve asked.
The Deputy Speaker: Hon. members, 29(2)(a) allows for five minutes of questions and comments. The Minister of Housing and Urban Affairs.
Mr. Denis: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I’m not the Minister of Justice, but I am a bit of a legal beagle, as this member has mentioned. I first want to commend this member for her complete and total dedication in her time here to law enforcement in this province. That being said, I do want to make just a couple of points. I do believe that we have got this bill right. I would submit to this member, respectfully, that we can’t use just the fact that we may not imagine every type of law school textbook view as to what may happen as an excuse for inaction.
This bill does allow an individual who has a legitimate reason to have body armour to obtain a licence. It is not a registry. It does have some bipartisan appeal, as the Member for Calgary-Buffalo had indicated his support before. Again, I do see a dead horse in front of me, Mr. Speaker. I’m not going to flog it.
I, too, have spoken to many members of the Calgary Police Service who have indicated to me that what will happen is that these gang members will actually use this body armour as a way to taunt people, as a way for status, as a way of identification when they have no legitimate reason to actually have it.
As well, there is similar legislation in British Columbia. This is not a registry; it’s licensing.
The final comment that I want to make, Mr. Speaker, is that we do not need to ask criminals or consult gang members about whether or not they like this bill. I’m about keeping the streets safe, and I’d say to the members of that caucus that they should be about doing the same.
Thank you.
Mrs. Forsyth: Well, Mr. Speaker, now he’s got me going because not once did I say to consult with gang members or did I say to consult with organized crime, you know, and I want that on the record. I talked about consulting with the people who are selling body armour. I think they should be part of the process.
Mr. Speaker, it’s amazing to me that yesterday I listened all day in regard to Bill 202, the mandatory reporting of child pornography, about the importance of consulting, the importance of getting it right, the importance of getting the regulations right, all of that stuff. You know what? I support this bill. I just need some clarification because what’s important is that these questions came from Albertans. These are questions that I heard from police officers. These are questions that I heard from people that are involved. In fact, some of his lawyer friends are even confused about this particular piece of legislation. It’s just a matter of getting clarification. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. I think it’s important. We can go back. I can talk to the police officers that brought up to me section 4(h): “a business owner, or an employee of a business, who in the ordinary course of that business or employment purchases, sells, transports or otherwise deals with body armour.” This came directly from a policeman about setting up the business: who is managing that business, and what’s stopping Joe Hells Angel? Don’t ever kid yourself. The Solicitor General knows of all of the businesses that are set up for laundering money and everything as legitimate businesses. The police, that he works for, know who they are. What’s stopping the Hells Angels from setting up a business and selling to whomever they want?
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